Comments on: Canada’s Ten-Month Waiting List for Maternity Beds http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/ Cleaning the Augean Stables of the Health Care Debate Sat, 11 Oct 2008 00:16:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: Frustrated Canuck http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-23073 Frustrated Canuck Thu, 31 Jan 2008 01:48:29 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-23073 The hospital in my community is in a code purple this means the stretchers in the ER and on all the hospital units are full. Even the medical and surgical wards have people laying on stretchers in the hallway hoping they may get a bed before discharge. Anyone suggesting that no problems exists in Canada has never been sick here, has never fought to get in the hospital and been denied treatment and hospital care here, because of the bed shortage. People are being denied necessary care and hospitalisations, because the hospital cannot accommodate patients and this includes those who have serious illnesses. The hospital in my community is in a code purple this means the stretchers in the ER and on all the hospital units are full. Even the medical and surgical wards have people laying on stretchers in the hallway hoping they may get a bed before discharge. Anyone suggesting that no problems exists in Canada has never been sick here, has never fought to get in the hospital and been denied treatment and hospital care here, because of the bed shortage. People are being denied necessary care and hospitalisations, because the hospital cannot accommodate patients and this includes those who have serious illnesses.

]]> By: R. Bobak http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5934 R. Bobak Mon, 27 Aug 2007 14:58:23 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5934 From a Canadian perspective, so-called "universality", which in practice here is a government-run, single-payer health monopoly, is not sustainable, and has lead to increases in taxes plus additional government premiums, resulting in less coverage and more waiting times. Politicians make our healthcare decisions on our behalf, as they (the government) are the only legal payer for medical services: they decide (ration) where the funding goes, or doesn't go. If your cancer is deemed politically-incorrect, that is, unworthy of coverage, "universality" is meaningless - and yet, concurrently we are banned from buying private insurance to cover what the state, through ignorance or negligence, fails to provide! We have no consumer choice in healthcare! Many Canadians are forced to travel to the States for cancer therapies that Canada simply dismisses as experimental, others, (as one Supreme court challenge, Quebec's 2005 Chaoulli ruling found) just die on waiting lists. The point is our system has no competition; it has no incentive, no reason to do more than it has to, other than the minimum to maintain its enertia and protect itself. The patient is viewed and treated as a liability to the health system, in that because hospitals are given finite budgets by the government, one patient more means automatically another gets less. Don't insultingly treat the fact, as some pro-Michael Moore types do, that Canadians escaping for their lives to the States for treatment that their own so-called "universal" health system can't provide for them at home, is just "anecdotal" and unworthy of mention in your new socialist healthcare plans. Don't look with envy at what 40 years worth of socialized medicine has done to Canada's healthcare system. No one deserves that. From a Canadian perspective, so-called “universality”, which in practice here is a government-run, single-payer health monopoly, is not sustainable, and has lead to increases in taxes plus additional government premiums, resulting in less coverage and more waiting times. Politicians make our healthcare decisions on our behalf, as they (the government) are the only legal payer for medical services: they decide (ration) where the funding goes, or doesn’t go. If your cancer is deemed politically-incorrect, that is, unworthy of coverage, “universality” is meaningless - and yet, concurrently we are banned from buying private insurance to cover what the state, through ignorance or negligence, fails to provide! We have no consumer choice in healthcare! Many Canadians are forced to travel to the States for cancer therapies that Canada simply dismisses as experimental, others, (as one Supreme court challenge, Quebec’s 2005 Chaoulli ruling found) just die on waiting lists. The point is our system has no competition; it has no incentive, no reason to do more than it has to, other than the minimum to maintain its enertia and protect itself. The patient is viewed and treated as a liability to the health system, in that because hospitals are given finite budgets by the government, one patient more means automatically another gets less. Don’t insultingly treat the fact, as some pro-Michael Moore types do, that Canadians escaping for their lives to the States for treatment that their own so-called “universal” health system can’t provide for them at home, is just “anecdotal” and unworthy of mention in your new socialist healthcare plans. Don’t look with envy at what 40 years worth of socialized medicine has done to Canada’s healthcare system. No one deserves that.

]]> By: John Summers http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5772 John Summers Thu, 23 Aug 2007 18:55:50 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5772 The argument on the left that Health Care in the US is not up the par with the rest of the world is clearly fabricated. All we have to do is draw on our own personal experiences to find the truth. When I call my doctor I am seen the same day if I’m sick. If tests are needed like a CT Scan, I was able to walk in with out an appointment and get the tests done the same day. My father recently passed away from cancer. He had no money and no insurance because he was retired but not old enough to receive Medicare. AT NO TIME was he never denied treatment at the hospital or by the Oncologist. His treatment was always given as needed. When he was no longer able to fight, Hospice took over his care and he was made comfortable even though he had no money. The system works, the only thing it needs is more competition to drive down the cost. The argument on the left that Health Care in the US is not up the par with the rest of the world is clearly fabricated. All we have to do is draw on our own personal experiences to find the truth. When I call my doctor I am seen the same day if I’m sick. If tests are needed like a CT Scan, I was able to walk in with out an appointment and get the tests done the same day. My father recently passed away from cancer. He had no money and no insurance because he was retired but not old enough to receive Medicare. AT NO TIME was he never denied treatment at the hospital or by the Oncologist. His treatment was always given as needed. When he was no longer able to fight, Hospice took over his care and he was made comfortable even though he had no money. The system works, the only thing it needs is more competition to drive down the cost.

]]> By: Catron http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5681 Catron Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:52:49 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5681 Sigh ... Morris, you make me tired. Sigh … Morris, you make me tired.

]]> By: Morris Berg http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5677 Morris Berg Tue, 21 Aug 2007 23:32:59 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5677 The abbreviated version of my lost post was exactly Marc's: Ever hear of logic, Dave? Your argument relies on a premise that has no basis in empirical measured fact. And no, what you have seen while in the think of it doesn't count. It is damn ridiculous to even have to explain this to someone who loves to challenge the flaws in actual data. Premise = US and Canada have different systems. Premise = US has shorter wait times than Canada. Conclusion = our system better or if we go to a more nationalized system our wait times will go up. To make such an argument without even having evidence that your premise is true IS BY ITSELF intellectual hackery. I don't even know how to explain to someone who does not understand this just exactly how flawed this reasoning is. LOGICAL TRUTH: The strength of this conclusion is limited by the strength of this premise. Now what if your untested assumption/premise is actually false, and the opposite is true? Well your conclusion is refuted. All the data I have seen, converges on one conclusion: less wait for elective surgery in the US, but otherwise we are no better and worse on many other procedures (see the UCSF cancer study for crissake). What data do you have? Your assertion that, "you REALLY know what you are talking about"? Is that your evidence? You ought to be embarassed. Well . . . even though I like actual data, I'll go with Brennan if I have to go with someone in the thick of its view (especially since it matches the info that is out there). Since you seem to think policy should be based on personal anecdotal opinion v. objectively measurable facts, I'll go with his. Or . . . is Aetna's CEO just lefty agitprop? Please address this on factual terms, Dave. Explain without ad hominums or non sequitors (or deletions) or obfuscation how your how you defend your logic and conclusion. This will logically require you to show that your "evidence" is better than Brennan's or the actual data that is out there. Since you have offered nothing in support of your position, just trying to dismiss (without any support) others does not carry the burden. Dave, I am challenging your intellectual competency. No one has to "win" or "lose." You just have to address this criticism in a intellectually valid manner - using logically sound analytical reasoning. I predict you can not and will not even address the issues raised, and I doubt you'll even post this. But if you have any ounce of honor, you will, and I'll apologize. The abbreviated version of my lost post was exactly Marc’s:

Ever hear of logic, Dave? Your argument relies on a premise that has no basis in empirical measured fact.

And no, what you have seen while in the think of it doesn’t count. It is damn ridiculous to even have to explain this to someone who loves to challenge the flaws in actual data.

Premise = US and Canada have different systems.
Premise = US has shorter wait times than Canada.
Conclusion = our system better or if we go to a more nationalized system our wait times will go up.

To make such an argument without even having evidence that your premise is true IS BY ITSELF intellectual hackery. I don’t even know how to explain to someone who does not understand this just exactly how flawed this reasoning is.

LOGICAL TRUTH: The strength of this conclusion is limited by the strength of this premise.

Now what if your untested assumption/premise is actually false, and the opposite is true? Well your conclusion is refuted. All the data I have seen, converges on one conclusion: less wait for elective surgery in the US, but otherwise we are no better and worse on many other procedures (see the UCSF cancer study for crissake).

What data do you have? Your assertion that, “you REALLY know what you are talking about”? Is that your evidence? You ought to be embarassed.

Well . . . even though I like actual data, I’ll go with Brennan if I have to go with someone in the thick of its view (especially since it matches the info that is out there). Since you seem to think policy should be based on personal anecdotal opinion v. objectively measurable facts, I’ll go with his.

Or . . . is Aetna’s CEO just lefty agitprop?

Please address this on factual terms, Dave.

Explain without ad hominums or non sequitors (or deletions) or obfuscation how your how you defend your logic and conclusion. This will logically require you to show that your “evidence” is better than Brennan’s or the actual data that is out there. Since you have offered nothing in support of your position, just trying to dismiss (without any support) others does not carry the burden.

Dave, I am challenging your intellectual competency.

No one has to “win” or “lose.” You just have to address this criticism in a intellectually valid manner - using logically sound analytical reasoning.

I predict you can not and will not even address the issues raised, and I doubt you’ll even post this. But if you have any ounce of honor, you will, and I’ll apologize.

]]> By: Catron http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5672 Catron Tue, 21 Aug 2007 22:09:45 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5672 You obviously can't accept anything that isn't fed to you by the lefty agitprop machine. But, believe it or not, there are many people out there with open minds who can think for themselves. You obviously can’t accept anything that isn’t fed to you by the lefty agitprop machine. But, believe it or not, there are many people out there with open minds who can think for themselves.

]]> By: Marc Brown http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5667 Marc Brown Tue, 21 Aug 2007 21:09:12 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5667 Sorry, no one can possibly accept this. Would you make a major policy decision without data? There's an old adage - you can't manage what you can't measure, or as Mark Kleiman, the prof at UCLA who was stalled repeatedly by his insurance company says: 'But only in wingnut health-policy fantasyland is not measuring a problem the same as not having a problem.' Sorry, no one can possibly accept this. Would you make a major policy decision without data? There’s an old adage - you can’t manage what you can’t measure, or as Mark Kleiman, the prof at UCLA who was stalled repeatedly by his insurance company says: ‘But only in wingnut health-policy fantasyland is not measuring a problem the same as not having a problem.’

]]> By: Catron http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5664 Catron Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:16:45 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5664 Ah, but I <em>do</em> know the US position. I've been in the thick of it for decades. It simply isn't plausible that the hospitals and medical communities in which I have worked are outliers. In reality, my work life has been spent in the garden-variety institutions where general trends tend to reveal themselves. I know you don't wish to accept this, but I <em>really do</em> know what I'm talking about. Ah, but I do know the US position. I’ve been in the thick of it for decades. It simply isn’t plausible that the hospitals and medical communities in which I have worked are outliers.

In reality, my work life has been spent in the garden-variety institutions where general trends tend to reveal themselves.

I know you don’t wish to accept this, but I really do know what I’m talking about.

]]> By: Marc Brown http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5662 Marc Brown Tue, 21 Aug 2007 20:06:03 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5662 'You want me to accept that we have wait times comparable to those of countries like Canada. But there really aren’t any credible data to support that position.' No - not even that. I'm asking you to accept that without knowing the US position, you cannot know if another country is worse. At best, you just don't know, if you choose to discount all the evidence that suggests the US fares a lot worse than you think. ‘You want me to accept that we have wait times comparable to those of countries like Canada. But there really aren’t any credible data to support that position.’

No - not even that. I’m asking you to accept that without knowing the US position, you cannot know if another country is worse. At best, you just don’t know, if you choose to discount all the evidence that suggests the US fares a lot worse than you think.

]]> By: Catron http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5656 Catron Tue, 21 Aug 2007 17:05:31 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/08/17/canada%e2%80%99s-ten-month-waiting-list-for-maternity-beds/#comment-5656 <em>Without year by year data you cannot compare your country with countries that gather very comprehensive data.</em> Isn't that precisely what you've been doing, Marc? You want me to accept that we have wait times comparable to those of countries like Canada. But there really aren't any credible data to support that position. I reject the Commonwealth Fund study because it is based on subjective data provided by patients. I know, from experience, that even the most sincere patients "misremember" key facts about their care. Without year by year data you cannot compare your country with countries that gather very comprehensive data.

Isn’t that precisely what you’ve been doing, Marc? You want me to accept that we have wait times comparable to those of countries like Canada. But there really aren’t any credible data to support that position.

I reject the Commonwealth Fund study because it is based on subjective data provided by patients. I know, from experience, that even the most sincere patients “misremember” key facts about their care.

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