Comments on: Al Gore: Now He’s Braying about Health Care http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/ Cleaning the Augean Stables of the Health Care Debate Thu, 11 Mar 2010 16:50:36 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: BobMan http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-10430 BobMan Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:42:52 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-10430 Here is a link to a Businessweek story. http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_47/b4059062.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_technology Synopsis: A ex-Navy MD is doing research on a radical way to minimize damage to the brain during a stroke. How does this play into Government health care? Easy, the Government would *never* fund this since it doesn't have obvious positive cost/benefit ratios, and the track record of experimental stroke treatments is so dismal. Just another example of the private sector willing and able to go out on a (very long) limb to try and find a better treatment. Try and find that level of risk taking in the NIH/CDC bureauracy..... Buwahahahahahahahahaha! Here is a link to a Businessweek story.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_47/b4059062.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index_technology

Synopsis: A ex-Navy MD is doing research on a radical way to minimize damage to the brain during a stroke.

How does this play into Government health care?
Easy, the Government would *never* fund this since it doesn’t have obvious positive cost/benefit ratios, and
the track record of experimental stroke treatments is so
dismal.

Just another example of the private sector willing and able to go out on a (very long) limb to try and find a better treatment. Try and find that level of risk taking
in the NIH/CDC bureauracy…..

Buwahahahahahahahahaha!

]]> By: drmatt http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9417 drmatt Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:38:26 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9417 There's the rub, agree completely. The government (otherwise known as we the people) must decide those details, this is where my personal opinion, and yours are taken into poll. Bottom line on this string is that the notion that it is a right is not idiotic. I suppose this is where the argument on who pays, how etc becomes, well, the ignition point for much debate. I find it all very interesting and stimulating. If the populace says, we want to all pitch in (via taxes) such that the govt (we the people) can buy some sort of basic health care package so that all of us have some form of basic health care. Then I agree, it isn't to say that it should force doctors to work for that system, in fact if doctors dont, the government will be forced to offer a competative rate for thier services, as they do for attorneys, judges etc. But if the public says, no thanks, we will just keep going, then I think the government (we the people) should step out completely, that is get rid of medicare rules that often cripple doctors, and remove emtala and so on. It seems unfair that I should have to operate a business and also straddle the line as a right. I dont think you can have it both ways, you can't make me provide some care for free because it is an emergency then tell me I have to survive as a business. There’s the rub, agree completely. The government (otherwise known as we the people) must decide those details, this is where my personal opinion, and yours are taken into poll. Bottom line on this string is that the notion that it is a right is not idiotic. I suppose this is where the argument on who pays, how etc becomes, well, the ignition point for much debate. I find it all very interesting and stimulating. If the populace says, we want to all pitch in (via taxes) such that the govt (we the people) can buy some sort of basic health care package so that all of us have some form of basic health care. Then I agree, it isn’t to say that it should force doctors to work for that system, in fact if doctors dont, the government will be forced to offer a competative rate for thier services, as they do for attorneys, judges etc. But if the public says, no thanks, we will just keep going, then I think the government (we the people) should step out completely, that is get rid of medicare rules that often cripple doctors, and remove emtala and so on. It seems unfair that I should have to operate a business and also straddle the line as a right. I dont think you can have it both ways, you can’t make me provide some care for free because it is an emergency then tell me I have to survive as a business.

]]> By: Rich http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9414 Rich Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:04:13 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9414 You make some valid points - but I will use one of them as an example. You mention the right to abortion, which we did not know we had until it was tested. As it stands now, there is a right to abortion - meaning, that the government cannot interfere should you decide to have an abortion. It does not mean, however, that the government must PROVIDE the abortion. You have the right to one, but that is no guarantee that you have the MEANS for one. (i.e. physicians are not compelled to provide abortions, nor is the government providing them wholesale for those that cannot afford them). Perhaps it is the same semantics, but in the current debate, it is not the "right" (defined as something which the government cannot legally deny you) that is being debated, but the "means" for securing the object of the "right". Similarly, I have the right to parody, but the government does not provide a recording studio, and the right to free speech, but the government does not provide airtime or a platform for said speech. You make some valid points - but I will use one of them as an example.

You mention the right to abortion, which we did not know we had until it was tested. As it stands now, there is a right to abortion - meaning, that the government cannot interfere should you decide to have an abortion. It does not mean, however, that the government must PROVIDE the abortion. You have the right to one, but that is no guarantee that you have the MEANS for one. (i.e. physicians are not compelled to provide abortions, nor is the government providing them wholesale for those that cannot afford them).

Perhaps it is the same semantics, but in the current debate, it is not the “right” (defined as something which the government cannot legally deny you) that is being debated, but the “means” for securing the object of the “right”. Similarly, I have the right to parody, but the government does not provide a recording studio, and the right to free speech, but the government does not provide airtime or a platform for said speech.

]]> By: drmatt http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9410 drmatt Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:52:47 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9410 Note; all of our specific rights are not defined by the constitution, they are implied by the general rights afforded, common law, and through applications of the judicial branch. You can read for years rulings of the supreme court that define rights that we didn't know we had until brought to task. (i.e. right to parody, right to abortion). So, incorrect, only if you do not understand how our rights are defined, decided on, implemented, legistated and enforced would you consider the notion of a right "idiotic" unless it has already been defined as "not a right" (obviously if it has been defined as a right it wouldn't be an idiotic notion)Please refer to the exact law or exemption that defines health care as not a right if there is one. In fact taking all this into consideration you could arguably apply the portions of the constitution and common law presidence (providing health care to those who need but have not means) and make a compelling case before the supreme court that basic health care is a right, thus the notion could not be idiotic. I am personally discouraged by how little people understand the process in which rights are outlined and defined such that they would say the notion is idiotic. Maybe a study of the three branches of government and the constitution should be required in more depth. Note; all of our specific rights are not defined by the constitution, they are implied by the general rights afforded, common law, and through applications of the judicial branch. You can read for years rulings of the supreme court that define rights that we didn’t know we had until brought to task. (i.e. right to parody, right to abortion). So, incorrect, only if you do not understand how our rights are defined, decided on, implemented, legistated and enforced would you consider the notion of a right “idiotic” unless it has already been defined as “not a right” (obviously if it has been defined as a right it wouldn’t be an idiotic notion)Please refer to the exact law or exemption that defines health care as not a right if there is one. In fact taking all this into consideration you could arguably apply the portions of the constitution and common law presidence (providing health care to those who need but have not means) and make a compelling case before the supreme court that basic health care is a right, thus the notion could not be idiotic. I am personally discouraged by how little people understand the process in which rights are outlined and defined such that they would say the notion is idiotic. Maybe a study of the three branches of government and the constitution should be required in more depth.

]]> By: drmatt http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9407 drmatt Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:31:46 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9407 Catron's notion that this is definetly not a right, and/or Gore's notion that it is are neither idiotic nor completely correct. I argue that the question has not been put to the test. I opine that it should be a right, others opine that it shouldn't. Historically there have been "implied and accepted" rights that have taken time (as does the big wheels of government to take) to be represented through legislation. Catron’s notion that this is definetly not a right, and/or Gore’s notion that it is are neither idiotic nor completely correct. I argue that the question has not been put to the test. I opine that it should be a right, others opine that it shouldn’t. Historically there have been “implied and accepted” rights that have taken time (as does the big wheels of government to take) to be represented through legislation.

]]> By: drmatt http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9405 drmatt Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:24:19 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9405 Quite true, I agree that it has not been declared a right, however, the notion is not idiotic. Point, the question has not really been put to the test, though it has not been defined as an overt right it has neither been defined as "not a right" supporting the fact, and my arguement, that the notion is not idiotic. Quite true, I agree that it has not been declared a right, however, the notion is not idiotic. Point, the question has not really been put to the test, though it has not been defined as an overt right it has neither been defined as “not a right” supporting the fact, and my arguement, that the notion is not idiotic.

]]> By: Rich http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9404 Rich Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:16:09 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9404 Actually you entered this thread with the question: "idiotic notion that health care is a right?" and later: "That saying someones notion of what rights we have is idiotic without first checking whether or not it meets the definition is, well, idiotic." According to your own posting above, since the society at large has not declared healthcare a right, it is not a right. Until and unless the society at large, by virtue of our representative government establish laws that make healthcare a "right" it is not a right. So to claim that it is a right, when it has not been established as such, is, well, "idiotic." At this time, the only healthcare "right" is to be treated in emergency situations and labor by emergency rooms, via EMTALA. Actually you entered this thread with the question:

“idiotic notion that health care is a right?”

and later:

“That saying someones notion of what rights we have is idiotic without first checking whether or not it meets the definition is, well, idiotic.”

According to your own posting above, since the society at large has not declared healthcare a right, it is not a right. Until and unless the society at large, by virtue of our representative government establish laws that make healthcare a “right” it is not a right. So to claim that it is a right, when it has not been established as such, is, well, “idiotic.”

At this time, the only healthcare “right” is to be treated in emergency situations and labor by emergency rooms, via EMTALA.

]]> By: drmatt http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9396 drmatt Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:16:10 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9396 "As an american citizen it is for me to decide" is a common misperception in democracy. As a dictator it is for "me" to decide, as an American citizen it is for "me" to be part of the decision making process and have a say in such decision. Or have you recently become americas dictator? So actually I am a citizen and have not sworn off my right to be part of the decision, I just understand that it is not up to "me". “As an american citizen it is for me to decide” is a common misperception in democracy. As a dictator it is for “me” to decide, as an American citizen it is for “me” to be part of the decision making process and have a say in such decision. Or have you recently become americas dictator? So actually I am a citizen and have not sworn off my right to be part of the decision, I just understand that it is not up to “me”.

]]> By: drmatt http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9395 drmatt Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:01:44 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9395 Sorry, I forgot to adress my conspicuous ommition of "liberty". I suppose I left out a great deal of the constitution. Liberty is a slippery definition, if you study John Locke and the likes you will find many definitions positive liberty, negative liberty. In any case this further supports my point, our founding farthers, in thier infinite wisdom, left this definition to us. We are to define it as we go, as we need, "WE" are to define which liberties are so important to the individual that they must necessarily place a burden on society, and visa versa. Sorry, I forgot to adress my conspicuous ommition of “liberty”. I suppose I left out a great deal of the constitution. Liberty is a slippery definition, if you study John Locke and the likes you will find many definitions positive liberty, negative liberty. In any case this further supports my point, our founding farthers, in thier infinite wisdom, left this definition to us. We are to define it as we go, as we need, “WE” are to define which liberties are so important to the individual that they must necessarily place a burden on society, and visa versa.

]]> By: drmatt http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9394 drmatt Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:49:58 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2007/10/18/al-gore-now-he%e2%80%99s-braying-about-health-care/#comment-9394 Not for me as an individual to decide, I do not, nor do I purport to speak for the entire population, which is who defines rights in this society (see articel IX of the Bill of Rights), and if you read the blog trail (is that what it is called?)that was my point. That saying someones notion of what rights we have is idiotic without first checking whether or not it meets the definition is, well, idiotic. We may opine what we think a right should be, but only the opinion of the majority of the populace makes it a right or not. Not for me as an individual to decide, I do not, nor do I purport to speak for the entire population, which is who defines rights in this society (see articel IX of the Bill of Rights), and if you read the blog trail (is that what it is called?)that was my point. That saying someones notion of what rights we have is idiotic without first checking whether or not it meets the definition is, well, idiotic. We may opine what we think a right should be, but only the opinion of the majority of the populace makes it a right or not.

]]>