Comments on: Canadian Health Care: Another Horror Story

By: Fred

Fred — Thu, 12 Jun 2008 13:33:17 +0000

I think the basic point is this: With government healthcare, we are allowing THEM to decide who lives and who dies, and what operations are worth the price.

This will also strip away economic incentives for potential doctors when looking at 12 years of law school. Of course, the government will probably subsidy their education anyway…

And if there happens to be a waiting list for a surgery or such, you can bet that anytime a politician or someone with power has a problem, they will automatically cut the line!

By: Working Antique

Working Antique — Wed, 28 Nov 2007 21:21:14 +0000

The problem here is that Catron finds and so expansively claims the merginal flaws in other systems are their norm, which simpy is not true. Our vaunted American system has more than enough flaws of its own, which if properly measured, might well exceed those of the government-based systems. Since Mr. Catron repeatedly makes his claims without the backing of any credible measures, he ruins his own credibitlity, sorry to say, because I’m a right-winder, too. I hate to see someone of my cloth being so irresponsible in his claims.

By: Makos

Makos — Sat, 10 Nov 2007 02:07:38 +0000

I think the most important issue here is missed. Anywhere in the world, at any given time, there will be hundreds of thousands of mistakes going on. Sometimes people just can’t do everything perfectly, governmentally funded or not.

By: BobMan

BobMan — Tue, 23 Oct 2007 17:10:04 +0000

Yes, in reality, I could see such an event happening in the People’s Republic of North America. To quote from the story Marc Brown cites in response #5:

“After STATE regulators cited the hospital for failing to have a gastroenterologist to handle a patient emergency,
Lavater [Hospital CEO] required all of the stomach specialists to see emergency patients in December.

But the move backfired in February, when 13 of the 16 gastroenterologists on staff QUIT after the hospital REFUSED TO PAY THEM $1,000 a day to handle emergencies.”

Just like Canada, Europe, Cuba, etc. M.D.s are expected to work for free to balance the Health Care Budget.

To Dr. Couz, spike, Marc Brown and the rest: don’t expect to be making USD 250,000 working for Uncle Sam when he takes over.

I used to be one of those Mindless Drones. If *I* were in charge of the “health care budget,” *I* would seek out the absolute cheapest MD on Planet Earth and THAT would be YOUR reimbursement rate. Can’t afford first world electricity, supplies, nurses? Tough s*%t. Make it do or do without!

THAT is why I don’t want anything to do with a “Universal Health Care Plan.” Sooner or later, it’s going to be shoved down my throat with extreme prejudice.

By: Catron

Catron — Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:39:05 +0000

Spike/Marc,

You guys have (once again) missed the point. I don’t claim that bad things never happen in the U.S. system. The point is that such things happen far more often in Canada, England, and all of the other places you guys represent as paragons of medical care. And they usually happen because of central government meddling. EMTALA is relevant to this discussion primarily as an example of the bad things that happen when government steps in to “fix” something.

By: Marc Brown

Marc Brown — Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:02:14 +0000

You need to compare the way things are now. To say these things never happen in America is comprehensively rebutted in the report I cited. Here’s an extract:

‘Hospital EDs have become frequently crowded environments, with patients sometimes lining hallways and waiting hours and even days to be admitted to inpatient beds (Asplin et al., 2003). Ambulance diversion, once rare, is now a common if not daily event in many major cities, and can lead to catastrophic consequences for patients (GAO, 2001; Schafermeyer and Asplin, 2003). Specialists needed to treat emergency and trauma patients are increasingly difficult to find; the result is longer waits and at times, distant transport of critically ill or injured patients for specialty care. The emergency system itself appears to be crumbling in major cities. In Los Angeles, for example, 8 hospital EDs have closed since 2003, bringing the total closed countywide to over 60 in the last decade (see Box 1-1) (Robes, 2005).’

By: spike

spike — Tue, 23 Oct 2007 02:59:38 +0000

so you admit this kind of thing can happen in the U.S., but only because of EMTALA. What exactly is your point again? The whole point of the original post was that this kind of thing doesn’t happen in the U.S. (of course, i’m pretty sure it doesn’t happen that often in Canada, either). Then when someone shows that it does in fact happen in the U.S., your response is to point out a government regulation you don’t like that makes it so.

None of the people who want more government involvement like EMTALA either. They’d much rather have a sensible system that covers everyone and doesn’t force hospitals to deliver billions in unpaid care each year at the point of EMTALA’s gun.

By: Rich

Rich — Tue, 23 Oct 2007 02:27:09 +0000

If anyone is interested, The distance in the Quebec story is about 150 miles - in the florida story 50 miles.

By: Catron

Catron — Tue, 23 Oct 2007 02:05:33 +0000

Mr. Bureau had to be driven a distance roughly equivalent to the trip from Baltimore, MD to Philadelphia, PA. Not a hugely important point. Just an attempt to highlight how Marc’s comparison doesn’t work.

By: Dr. Couz

Dr. Couz — Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:56:28 +0000

Why would you have to be transferred to another state for the situation to be analogous?

The patient is from Aylmer, Quebec. The hospital was in Wakefield, Quebec. The surgery was done in Montreal, Quebec. All in Quebec. A horrifying story, to be sure… but I’ve work in Ottawa and never heard of anything like this happening before– a surgeon couldn’t be found? Bizarre. And certainly not an everyday occurrence.