Comments on: ARNOLDCARE TERMINATED http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/ Cleaning the Augean Stables of the Health Care Debate Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:07:14 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.3.3 By: drmatt http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23545 drmatt Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:35:50 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23545 You are right, this would be best on another blog, although i imagine a blog dedicated to this would be far beyond where I could join in. I too apologize david, graciously. one more thing though rich you wrote 'Choas & uncertainty are not new applications of the same laws. They are revisions to the basic knowledge of physical laws which acknowledge that there is uncertainty, and that many physical phenomon are best described probabilistically, rather than deterministically. an now you right "they do follow the laws of physics" I dont see that we disagree, I do see that you disagree with yourself, first you say that chaos is a revision of basic knowlege of the laws, which it most certainly is not, it is a new application and an overall admission of our inability to adjust for everything, (light, heat, soundwaves, particals, gravitational fields etc. etc. etc) there is no revision of the basic knowlege. Though, being a science fiction fan, i do like to fantasize about a day when we can adjust and control for all variables, who knows maybe another million years or so. You are right, this would be best on another blog, although i imagine a blog dedicated to this would be far beyond where I could join in.
I too apologize david, graciously.
one more thing though
rich you wrote
‘Choas & uncertainty are not new applications of the same laws. They are revisions to the basic knowledge of physical laws which acknowledge that there is uncertainty, and that many physical phenomon are best described probabilistically, rather than deterministically.

an now you right “they do follow the laws of physics”

I dont see that we disagree, I do see that you disagree with yourself, first you say that chaos is a revision of basic knowlege of the laws, which it most certainly is not, it is a new application and an overall admission of our inability to adjust for everything, (light, heat, soundwaves, particals, gravitational fields etc. etc. etc) there is no revision of the basic knowlege.
Though, being a science fiction fan, i do like to fantasize about a day when we can adjust and control for all variables, who knows maybe another million years or so.

]]> By: Matt Horn http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23541 Matt Horn Thu, 31 Jan 2008 20:30:04 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23541 I will maintain my tangent for one last post. Economic laws are truly laws. The divergent opinions are theories based on those laws, (and sometimes destroyed by those laws.) The rules hold for those from the Austrian school, Marxists, Supply-Sideers, Keynesiens, mercantilists, etc. The problem comes with the predictive modeling, as there tend to be a significant number of variables and unknowns. As a matter of fact, one predictive model I used would track curves on over 25,000 axis and put them into a single curve. (The most I plotted was 100, It took three weeks!) I will maintain my tangent for one last post. Economic laws are truly laws. The divergent opinions are theories based on those laws, (and sometimes destroyed by those laws.) The rules hold for those from the Austrian school, Marxists, Supply-Sideers, Keynesiens, mercantilists, etc. The problem comes with the predictive modeling, as there tend to be a significant number of variables and unknowns. As a matter of fact, one predictive model I used would track curves on over 25,000 axis and put them into a single curve. (The most I plotted was 100, It took three weeks!)

]]> By: Rich http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23524 Rich Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:49:43 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23524 aaaa.. Bohr and Heisenberg are rolling over in their respective graves. They do follow the laws of phsyics. Where we disagree is apparently your notion that given sufficient improvements in our knowledge and instrumentation, these systems become deterministic - which is incorrect. They are inherently probabilistic. Einstein, who was a detractor of quantum theory, characterized his doubt about it by saying "I do not believe G-d would play dice." Nevertheless, the data in support of quantum theory has grown immensely since Einstein's passing, and apparently, G-d does play dice. But this tangent really belongs on another blog. Sorry David. aaaa.. Bohr and Heisenberg are rolling over in their respective graves.

They do follow the laws of phsyics. Where we disagree is apparently your notion that given sufficient improvements in our knowledge and instrumentation, these systems become deterministic - which is incorrect. They are inherently probabilistic. Einstein, who was a detractor of quantum theory, characterized his doubt about it by saying “I do not believe G-d would play dice.” Nevertheless, the data in support of quantum theory has grown immensely since Einstein’s passing, and apparently, G-d does play dice.

But this tangent really belongs on another blog. Sorry David.

]]> By: drmatt http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23519 drmatt Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:39:39 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23519 Sorry matt, you have reached the extent of my knowlege on economics, the reference is from an undergraduate notebook i kept for class, and undergraduate was a long time ago, so exactly what the professor was referring to is outside of what my early alzhiemer's betz cells can retrieve. non the less, my memory serves that the "laws" of economics are not near as predictable as say, gravity, speed of sound, or other physical concepts, and thus do not warrant the title LAW. In example, When it comes to economics, you can find as many economists to say that one thing will happen as another? you wont find this for gravity, speed of light etc. etc. etc. It almost seems closer to philosophy or psychology (which wouldnt suprise me being that it appears to be in some measure, another way to look at human behavior, which as we no is on certain in it's unpredictability). Sorry matt, you have reached the extent of my knowlege on economics, the reference is from an undergraduate notebook i kept for class, and undergraduate was a long time ago, so exactly what the professor was referring to is outside of what my early alzhiemer’s betz cells can retrieve. non the less, my memory serves that the “laws” of economics are not near as predictable as say, gravity, speed of sound, or other physical concepts, and thus do not warrant the title LAW. In example, When it comes to economics, you can find as many economists to say that one thing will happen as another? you wont find this for gravity, speed of light etc. etc. etc. It almost seems closer to philosophy or psychology (which wouldnt suprise me being that it appears to be in some measure, another way to look at human behavior, which as we no is on certain in it’s unpredictability).

]]> By: drmatt http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23432 drmatt Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:59:40 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23432 I understand the theory, it is not deterministic only because it is unpredictable (often referred to as the butterfly effect, in this case the flap of the butterfly's wings being the unpredictable variable to push action to a critical mass) because the variables are immeasurable, unpredictable and minute (and part of an uncontrollable system) this does not mean that the variables and effects of variables do not follow the laws of phsyics!!!! In fact the attempt at chaos math equations, quantum physics etc, is to apply the laws of physics to those variables in a way that can be repeated and reproduced. I understand the theory, it is not deterministic only because it is unpredictable (often referred to as the butterfly effect, in this case the flap of the butterfly’s wings being the unpredictable variable to push action to a critical mass) because the variables are immeasurable, unpredictable and minute (and part of an uncontrollable system) this does not mean that the variables and effects of variables do not follow the laws of phsyics!!!! In fact the attempt at chaos math equations, quantum physics etc, is to apply the laws of physics to those variables in a way that can be repeated and reproduced.

]]> By: Matt Horn http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23431 Matt Horn Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:59:33 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23431 drmatt, I see you knew exactally what I was referring to even though I was typing too fast. I would also like a citation as to when that law would not hold. Yes the associated curve may shift, but it will always hold. Maybe that is what you were trying to say. drmatt, I see you knew exactally what I was referring to even though I was typing too fast. I would also like a citation as to when that law would not hold. Yes the associated curve may shift, but it will always hold. Maybe that is what you were trying to say.

]]> By: Rich http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23420 Rich Thu, 31 Jan 2008 16:42:05 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23420 In theoretical physics, chaos and probability are not a property of the observer or of the observers lack of knowledge of the variables involved, they are inherent in the system. It is, in fact, what makes quantum mechanics, quantum mechanics. Oh well. It's irrelevant. If laws of science were deterministic, than objective data would be enough to convince those who otherwise apply the sciences selectively. But it is apparently not the case. In theoretical physics, chaos and probability are not a property of the observer or of the observers lack of knowledge of the variables involved, they are inherent in the system.

It is, in fact, what makes quantum mechanics, quantum mechanics.

Oh well. It’s irrelevant.

If laws of science were deterministic, than objective data would be enough to convince those who otherwise apply the sciences selectively. But it is apparently not the case.

]]> By: drmatt http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23379 drmatt Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:34:47 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23379 Chaos, probability and uncertainty are all based on the infintismal number of variables and how they effect the behavior of the thing being studied (not to mention the unpredictability of the presence and effect of such variables0, they are NOT descriptions of changes in the basic laws, and of course this applies in medicine, variables are what make medicine an art as much as a science. will need time on the reference, gleaned it from my undergraduate notes (never did write references in my notes) Chaos, probability and uncertainty are all based on the infintismal number of variables and how they effect the behavior of the thing being studied (not to mention the unpredictability of the presence and effect of such variables0, they are NOT descriptions of changes in the basic laws, and of course this applies in medicine, variables are what make medicine an art as much as a science.
will need time on the reference, gleaned it from my undergraduate notes (never did write references in my notes)

]]> By: Rich http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23348 Rich Thu, 31 Jan 2008 13:45:28 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23348 'discuss this also write, “it will not always hold”, or something to that degree' Citation, please. Choas & uncertainty are not new applications of the same laws. They are revisions to the basic knowledge of physical laws which acknowledge that there is uncertainty, and that many physical phenomon are best described probabilistically, rather than deterministically. But such is the case in Medicine as well, so you should know that. ‘discuss this also write, “it will not always hold”, or something to that degree’

Citation, please.

Choas & uncertainty are not new applications of the same laws. They are revisions to the basic knowledge of physical laws which acknowledge that there is uncertainty, and that many physical phenomon are best described probabilistically, rather than deterministically.

But such is the case in Medicine as well, so you should know that.

]]> By: drmatt http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23322 drmatt Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:29:53 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2008/01/30/arnoldcare-terminated/#comment-23322 The law of diminishing (I believe diminishing is the correct word here, not decreasing) marginal utility is a notion that marginal utilities are diminishing across the ranges of relevant decision making, however, read further and most authors who discuss this also write, "it will not always hold", or something to that degree. Please tell me when gravity doesnt hold? when biochemestry, kinetics, light, radiowaves or any other phenomenon described by physics does not hold? In regards to chaos theory, awsome stuff, describes in many ways, phenomenon that we previously have been unable to describe, but it does not operate outside of the laws of physics, it only displays a new application. cmon guys. The law of diminishing (I believe diminishing is the correct word here, not decreasing) marginal utility is a notion that marginal utilities are diminishing across the ranges of relevant decision making, however, read further and most authors who discuss this also write, “it will not always hold”, or something to that degree. Please tell me when gravity doesnt hold? when biochemestry, kinetics, light, radiowaves or any other phenomenon described by physics does not hold? In regards to chaos theory, awsome stuff, describes in many ways, phenomenon that we previously have been unable to describe, but it does not operate outside of the laws of physics, it only displays a new application. cmon guys.

]]>