Comments on: MSM PEDDLES PROP-C WHOPPER http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/ Cleaning the Augean Stables of the Health Care Debate Thu, 10 May 2012 21:39:40 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Lightfoot_55 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461730 Lightfoot_55 Fri, 06 Aug 2010 15:19:16 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461730 "...And, even if such mandates were effective, they still wouldn’t justify such a brazen violation of the Constitution. To say that this unconstitutional mandate is justified because it covers the uninsured is like saying fascism is OK because Mussolini made trains run on time." Thanks for making the point that the health care mandates are in fact unconstitutional. That is the real issue. The health care mandates actually make it illegal for me to actually pay cash for medical care rather than use the required insurance (I get 'taxed' (translation: FINED)if I do.) The healthcare overhaul is merely a vehicle for reduction of personal freedoms and increases in government intrusion into and control over the daily lives of the Citizens. I have no problem with healthcare for all, but I have a huge problem with mandates from the federal government requiring everyone to purchase something they may not want to have, and stating that it has the power to do so under the "commerce clause". That's BS “…And, even if such mandates were effective, they still wouldn’t justify such a brazen violation of the Constitution. To say that this unconstitutional mandate is justified because it covers the uninsured is like saying fascism is OK because Mussolini made trains run on time.”

Thanks for making the point that the health care mandates are in fact unconstitutional. That is the real issue. The health care mandates actually make it illegal for me to actually pay cash for medical care rather than use the required insurance (I get ‘taxed’ (translation: FINED)if I do.) The healthcare overhaul is merely a vehicle for reduction of personal freedoms and increases in government intrusion into and control over the daily lives of the Citizens.

I have no problem with healthcare for all, but I have a huge problem with mandates from the federal government requiring everyone to purchase something they may not want to have, and stating that it has the power to do so under the “commerce clause”.

That’s BS

]]> By: Catron http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461740 Catron Fri, 06 Aug 2010 14:18:16 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461740 <i>I can’t see why bad debt isn’t part of uncompensated care.</i> Now you're attempting a bait-and-switch. Your "serious question" was about the cost of treating the uninsured, not "uncompensated care." The former is but one (relatively small) component of the latter. The people who produced your phony report know the difference, and that bad debt cannot be conflated with the cost of treating the uninsured, yet they still included it in their calculation. That makes them dishonest. And, as your comments make clear, their willingness to produce deliberately deceptive stats has allowed them to gull many people. I can’t see why bad debt isn’t part of uncompensated care.

Now you’re attempting a bait-and-switch. Your “serious question” was about the cost of treating the uninsured, not “uncompensated care.” The former is but one (relatively small) component of the latter.

The people who produced your phony report know the difference, and that bad debt cannot be conflated with the cost of treating the uninsured, yet they still included it in their calculation.

That makes them dishonest. And, as your comments make clear, their willingness to produce deliberately deceptive stats has allowed them to gull many people.

]]> By: Marc Brown http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461736 Marc Brown Fri, 06 Aug 2010 08:20:18 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461736 I can't see why bad debt isn't part of uncompensated care. Are you saying that some insurance companies default on payment? I'm sure some do but most bad debt must surely be from people without insurance. I can’t see why bad debt isn’t part of uncompensated care. Are you saying that some insurance companies default on payment? I’m sure some do but most bad debt must surely be from people without insurance.

]]> By: Catron http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461734 Catron Thu, 05 Aug 2010 22:01:48 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461734 Sorry. No sale. Your source is biased (“Cover Missouri� … give me a break!) and its methodology doesn’t pass the laugh test. This is how they came up with the “estimated cost of hospital care to the uninsured�:

“First, the charges attributed to free care and bad debt were added together for each hospital … The sum of charges for free care and bad debt was multiplied by each hospital’s cost-to-charge ratio … The 2004 data were adjusted by estimated growth in uninsured …�

The inclusion of bad debt, which isn’t the same as uninsured care, would cause any honest analyst to throw this in the shredder. That they compounded that sleight of hand by jacking the figure up another 23% to account for “estimated growth in the uninsured� qualifies it as a deliberate fraud.

]]> By: Marc Brown http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461733 Marc Brown Thu, 05 Aug 2010 18:38:38 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461733 If you look at this report - The Cost of Care for Missouri’s Uninsured (http://www.mffh.org/mm/files/CoverMoDataBook2.pdf) which looks at 2005 you'll see estimates of uncompensated care ranged from $666 million to $753 million, and that's when there were only 600,000 uninsured. Things have got a lot worse of course. If you look at this report – The Cost of Care for Missouri’s Uninsured (http://www.mffh.org/mm/files/CoverMoDataBook2.pdf) which looks at 2005 you’ll see estimates of uncompensated care ranged from $666 million to $753 million, and that’s when there were only 600,000 uninsured. Things have got a lot worse of course.

]]> By: Catron http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461728 Catron Wed, 04 Aug 2010 23:55:38 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461728 LOL ... Kuhn is Beltway bandit from way back, a roundheel lobbyist and a card-carrying apparatchik from MedPAC and CMS. He has zero credibility and his numbers are fiction. But, even if his numbers were real (the actual COST of serving the uninsured in MO is probably about 10% of his figure), it doesn't follow that Obamacare will reduce the cost of treating these patients. In Massachusetts, a similar mandate has produced the opposite effect. And, even if such mandates were effective, they still wouldn't justify such a brazen violation of the Constitution. To say that this unconstitutional mandate is justified because it covers the uninsured is like saying fascism is OK because Mussolini made trains run on time. LOL … Kuhn is Beltway bandit from way back, a roundheel lobbyist and a card-carrying apparatchik from MedPAC and CMS. He has zero credibility and his numbers are fiction.

But, even if his numbers were real (the actual COST of serving the uninsured in MO is probably about 10% of his figure), it doesn’t follow that Obamacare will reduce the cost of treating these patients. In Massachusetts, a similar mandate has produced the opposite effect.

And, even if such mandates were effective, they still wouldn’t justify such a brazen violation of the Constitution. To say that this unconstitutional mandate is justified because it covers the uninsured is like saying fascism is OK because Mussolini made trains run on time.

]]> By: Marc Brown http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461727 Marc Brown Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:45:22 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461727 “Proposition C would only reinforce a broken system,� Herb B. Kuhn, president and chief executive of the Missouri Hospital Association, wrote in an opinion piece. “More than 700,000 Missourians don’t have health insurance and the state’s hospitals spent more than $830 million in 2008 providing care for these individuals. Under Proposition C, this system of cost shifts will continue.�

Read more: http://www.kansascity.com/2010/07/29/2116812/proposition-c-will-only-encourage.html#ixzz0vgDolqXQ

]]> By: Catron http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461726 Catron Wed, 04 Aug 2010 22:12:49 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461726 <i>There are 700,000 people in Missouri who are uninsured. They cost the hospitals there about $850 million a year.</i> This will not be a "serious question" until you provide the source of your figures. When you provide that information, I'll provide a serious answer. There are 700,000 people in Missouri who are uninsured. They cost the hospitals there about $850 million a year.

This will not be a “serious question” until you provide the source of your figures. When you provide that information, I’ll provide a serious answer.

]]> By: Marc Brown http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461721 Marc Brown Wed, 04 Aug 2010 19:14:34 +0000 http://www.healthcarebs.com/2010/08/04/msm-peddles-prop-c-whopper/#comment-461721 A serious question for you. There are 700,000 people in Missouri who are uninsured. They cost the hospitals there about $850 million a year. So instead of arguing for a responsible option of everyone contributing over their lifetime and not going to a hospital without insurance, you seriously want your hospitals continuing to deal with so much uncompensated care, much of which is not comprehensive and which results not only in many not getting vital procedures, but a huge chronic disease burden? Your position - unless it's completely that of a far right ideologue - makes no sense to me. A serious question for you. There are 700,000 people in Missouri who are uninsured. They cost the hospitals there about $850 million a year. So instead of arguing for a responsible option of everyone contributing over their lifetime and not going to a hospital without insurance, you seriously want your hospitals continuing to deal with so much uncompensated care, much of which is not comprehensive and which results not only in many not getting vital procedures, but a huge chronic disease burden? Your position – unless it’s completely that of a far right ideologue – makes no sense to me.

]]>